It occurs to me that by posting these ideas, I'm actually screwing Blizzard (and WoW players) out of possible improvements. Blizzard probably can't implement my ideas even if they did like them and wanted to, without actually buying them from me. Yes, I've put them out here in the public domain, but the ideas remain mine, and if I don't post "Blizzard, you've got carte blanche to use my ideas" then they can't use them for fear of me suing them. And if Blizzard can't use my ideas, it means the players lose out, too (assuming my ideas really are that good ;)
So how do we fix WSG? Well, what's the biggest problem with WSG?
It takes too long, right? Your team gets 2 Flag Caps and what happens? Everyone on the other team falls back to their base and now you've got a turtle. How can we fix this?
We could implement a Timer...but a Timer can actually negatively affect two evenly matched teams who are fighting an ebb & flow battle. Where Flags are constantly being picked up, huge fights are being fought mid-field, Flags are being dropped and returned, or dropped & picked up again, or returned and...someone hiding in your Base picks it up again! These are the fun WSGs where players are trying to support each other, they're actively PvPing, nobody is trying to Turtle or just let the other team lose, and everyone is having a blast. Then 15 minutes later...Bam! Everyone finds themself dumped back in front of their Battlemaster. Talk about Coitus Interruptus!
So while a Timer might be a good idea when you're up 2 & 0 and the other team is Turtling and try as you might you can't get their Flag out of their Base, but for a game where that's not happening? Where it's just two evenly matched teams thrusting, repelling, counter thrusting. Then a Timer literally is Couitus Interruptus.
If we look at the other BGs they all have Timers of a sort. Okay, it's actually a Counter.
AB - every few seconds the two Teams get points based on how many Bases they hold. First Team to 2000 points wins.
EOTS - every second the two Teams get points based on how many Bases they hold, with Flag Caps awarding more Points the more Bases you hold. First to 2000 wins.
AV - Both Teams start with 600 points. You win by reducing your opponent's Points to zero, by defeating their General (instant win), taking enemy-held Keeps & Towers, killing their Captain, or just killing opposing players (1 pt each).
WSG is (currently) the only BG that does not use a Counter/Timer. Get three Flag Caps and you win. That's it. If that takes you 10 minutes, or an hour, or half a day, it ain't over 'til one of the teams has scored 3 points.
But what if the game was played to 150 points, and a Flag Cap was worth 50 points?
That doesn't sound much different than it's current scoring system, right? But if we incorporate part of the AV Counter system, and for every HK your team gets you score 1 point, now it becomes a little more interesting.
Now if two teams are evenly matched, and they're fighting mid-field tooth & nail but neither team is giving up any ground. Flags are getting picked up, dropped, returned, then picked up again. Players are fighting and dying, then rezzing and running back in, but neither team's Flag Runner can break through. With each death the counter slowly ticks up. Now you need to win by attrition, and if one Team turtles, the team on the outside can either send players to the roof to rain death down upon those below with AOE attacks, DOTs, etc, and slowly kill them one by one. Now you don't need to get their Flag, it's enough to know that with every death they incur, your Team moves one step closer to Victory.
Would this work? Would you like to see a counter like this incorporated into WSG? Are Blizzard likely to do anything like this?
Not now, at least not unless I write: If there is anyone out there who could use this idea to compliment one of their games, you are more than welcome to it. Now it might get incorporated, assuming anyone from Blizzard reads the ramblings of the Famous Wizard 101 Blogger ;)
Showing posts with label BGs. Show all posts
Showing posts with label BGs. Show all posts
Thursday, October 30, 2008
Friday, August 29, 2008
Fixing WoW's BGs
How often does this happen?
You zone into a WoW BG and the first message you see is:
"Just let them win. It's faster Honor."
Or this:
"Everyone report Lolimafk as AFK!"
You check the Map and Lolimafk, and several other players, are still in the cave, even though AV started 5 minutes ago. The battle ends with your General being defeated and you look at the Map. Lolimafk, and several others, are still in the cave.
WAR is being touted as the next best thing in PvP/RvR, but already some people are not happy with its apparent bias towards team work. Combat in WAR is slower than in WoW. In WOW a Rogue pops out of Stealth, Ambushing you or Stunlocking you, and for several seconds you can do nothing, then you die. That doesn't happen in WAR. Combat lasts a lot longer (or appears to). Players cannot tie up an opponent and prevent them from not just moving but fighting back, until death do us part. In WAR, Combat lasts long enough that other players have a chance to react. Friends (& foes) have a chance to help out with Heals or damaging attacks of their own. Players in WAR need to work together if they want to succeed. In one on one encounters, you might take down your opponent, but just because you got the drop on him doesn't necessarily mean you'll be victorious.
What does this mean for WoW?
It means the people who enjoy PvP/RvR but who enjoy playing as a group are going to love WAR, meanwhile Lolimafk and his buddies are still AFKing in the caves in AV. The players who used to be out in the fields trying to win while cursing Lol under their breath? They're playing WAR. And the players with less Lols & AFKers on their team, they're more likely to win, because they're more likely to play as a team.
How can Blizzard encourage people to play as a Team?
By changing the way their BG rewards system works, by doing something that would be very unpopular, but it would only be unpopular with Lolimafk and a handful of other players.
Get rid of Honor. You don't need it. Or at least get rid of it as a PvP currency. The only PvP currency should be PvP Badges won from the BGs. And speaking of winning them...you need to win to win them.
Fuck the losers. Fuck the AFKers. If you don't play the BGs properly, if you just sit in the cave thinking you can AFK Honor Farm all evening, you've got another think coming.
Think you can just let your team lose because it's "faster honor". THERE IS NO HONOR!
If you want those really cool PvP Epics then you've got to work for them. There is no second place prize. Second place is just the first loser.
You can't AFK in the cave any more because it won't get you any Honor. Your Team won't win without your help, either, and if your Team doesn't win you won't get any Badges. If you're off by yourself doing your own thing (whether that's AFK or Fishing), you're not playing as part of the team, and if you're not part of the team, you've just decreased your team's chances of winning, which means you're less likely to get the Badges you need.
Would this work? I think it would. Would it be popular? I know it wouldn't. And that's why Blizzard won't do it.
But unless someone has a better idea, it's the best idea I know of to get rid of the AFK Honor Farmers and promote teamwork in the BGs. Sure, the AFK Honor Farmers will become AFK Badge Farmers, but Badges will take a lot longer to earn when your team keeps losing because you were AFK instead of helping out.
And finally, make the AFK Reporting system actually do something. Does anyone still believe reporting someone AFK works?
Change the AFK reporting system so if enough people report Lolimafk as AFK during a BG, it gives him an AFK debuff similar to the already existing /AFK Coward Debuff. You're an AFK Farmer, so no joining a BG queue for 15 minutes. And if Lol receives this AFK debuff enough times in a 24 hour period, it prevents him from signing up for any BG for 24 hours. And at the end of the week if Lol has received sufficient AFK debuffs, he cannot join any BG for 7 days, on any of his characters.
As I said, not popular. But AFK Honor Farmers aren't popular either, so what does it matter? We're not trying to make friends, we're trying to solve a problem, and the people who aren't likely to be happy with this solution are probably part of the problem. And if we get rid of them, we've solved the problem.
You zone into a WoW BG and the first message you see is:
"Just let them win. It's faster Honor."
Or this:
"Everyone report Lolimafk as AFK!"
You check the Map and Lolimafk, and several other players, are still in the cave, even though AV started 5 minutes ago. The battle ends with your General being defeated and you look at the Map. Lolimafk, and several others, are still in the cave.
WAR is being touted as the next best thing in PvP/RvR, but already some people are not happy with its apparent bias towards team work. Combat in WAR is slower than in WoW. In WOW a Rogue pops out of Stealth, Ambushing you or Stunlocking you, and for several seconds you can do nothing, then you die. That doesn't happen in WAR. Combat lasts a lot longer (or appears to). Players cannot tie up an opponent and prevent them from not just moving but fighting back, until death do us part. In WAR, Combat lasts long enough that other players have a chance to react. Friends (& foes) have a chance to help out with Heals or damaging attacks of their own. Players in WAR need to work together if they want to succeed. In one on one encounters, you might take down your opponent, but just because you got the drop on him doesn't necessarily mean you'll be victorious.
What does this mean for WoW?
It means the people who enjoy PvP/RvR but who enjoy playing as a group are going to love WAR, meanwhile Lolimafk and his buddies are still AFKing in the caves in AV. The players who used to be out in the fields trying to win while cursing Lol under their breath? They're playing WAR. And the players with less Lols & AFKers on their team, they're more likely to win, because they're more likely to play as a team.
How can Blizzard encourage people to play as a Team?
By changing the way their BG rewards system works, by doing something that would be very unpopular, but it would only be unpopular with Lolimafk and a handful of other players.
Get rid of Honor. You don't need it. Or at least get rid of it as a PvP currency. The only PvP currency should be PvP Badges won from the BGs. And speaking of winning them...you need to win to win them.
Fuck the losers. Fuck the AFKers. If you don't play the BGs properly, if you just sit in the cave thinking you can AFK Honor Farm all evening, you've got another think coming.
Think you can just let your team lose because it's "faster honor". THERE IS NO HONOR!
If you want those really cool PvP Epics then you've got to work for them. There is no second place prize. Second place is just the first loser.
You can't AFK in the cave any more because it won't get you any Honor. Your Team won't win without your help, either, and if your Team doesn't win you won't get any Badges. If you're off by yourself doing your own thing (whether that's AFK or Fishing), you're not playing as part of the team, and if you're not part of the team, you've just decreased your team's chances of winning, which means you're less likely to get the Badges you need.
Would this work? I think it would. Would it be popular? I know it wouldn't. And that's why Blizzard won't do it.
But unless someone has a better idea, it's the best idea I know of to get rid of the AFK Honor Farmers and promote teamwork in the BGs. Sure, the AFK Honor Farmers will become AFK Badge Farmers, but Badges will take a lot longer to earn when your team keeps losing because you were AFK instead of helping out.
And finally, make the AFK Reporting system actually do something. Does anyone still believe reporting someone AFK works?
Change the AFK reporting system so if enough people report Lolimafk as AFK during a BG, it gives him an AFK debuff similar to the already existing /AFK Coward Debuff. You're an AFK Farmer, so no joining a BG queue for 15 minutes. And if Lol receives this AFK debuff enough times in a 24 hour period, it prevents him from signing up for any BG for 24 hours. And at the end of the week if Lol has received sufficient AFK debuffs, he cannot join any BG for 7 days, on any of his characters.
As I said, not popular. But AFK Honor Farmers aren't popular either, so what does it matter? We're not trying to make friends, we're trying to solve a problem, and the people who aren't likely to be happy with this solution are probably part of the problem. And if we get rid of them, we've solved the problem.
Tuesday, August 05, 2008
Engineers!!! Let's RIDE!!!
The buzz from the 'Net and WoWInsider is that at 80, Engineers can make motorbikes. Wrath's lvl 80 Mount does not fly or go faster, it allows you to carry passenger/s, ergo, the Engineers motorbike comes with a sidecar:
This is the Alliance version. Apparently the Horde version comes in Red! Oh, yeah!
Now I just need to get one of my Horde Toons to 70, then power level Engineering :P
I'm looking at this Bike, which carries passengers, and I'm thinking this could totally change WoW's BGs. Think Mounted Combat!!!
The following BG Ideas are pure speculations.
Pair up with someone and join the queue as a Group (pair) and assign a Driver and, by default, a Passenger.
In the vehicle-only BGs there is no Dismounting and all the Battles are unforgiving; you can only die one death, just like in the Arenas. When your vehicle is destroyed it's Game Over for you & your partner.
The Driver: As the Driver you have complete control of the vehicle. You're responsible for the safety of you and your passenger, who's just along for the ride. You can use spells and abilities, but using any spells/abilities with a Cast Time will make you lose control of the vehicle while the Spell is being Cast. Only by using Instant Cast spells can you remain in complete control of the vehicle.
The Passenger: You have absolutely no control over the vehicle. You're at the whim of your Driver. You are free to use/cast any Spells/Abilities, including those with Cast Timers, without penalty. Keep in mind that if you're targeting one vehicle but your Driver is focused on another, your Target may very well move out of Range of your spell before it's cast. Coordination between Driver and Passenger is crucial. As well as Spells & Abilities, you may also Melee or Auto-attack other vehicles if they're close enough. The Driver may also perform Melee attacks, and may do so without losing control of the vehicle.
The Vehicle: Spells and Attacks target & affect the Vehicle ONLY. They do not affect the Driver or Passenger, and thus Driver/Passenger Resilience or Spell/Magic Resists are irrelevant in vehicle-to-vehicle combat. The Armor and "Health" of the vehicle is the combined Armor and Health of the Driver and Passenger, plus a bonus for being a Vehicle. These are the only Character Stats that affect Vehicles.
Now let's look at the (imaginary) Battlegrounds.
The first Vehicle-specific BG is little more than a coliseum. An open (albeit enclosed) arena with a few obstacles here, some ramps and hills there, but mostly nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. It's a very simple Arena-type BG with just one strategy: Kill or Be Killed. When vehicles are destroyed they explode, but will remain in the BG as a smoking wreck (potentially providing cover) until the battle is over.
The Driver and Passenger of the last remaining vehicle receives 100 Vehicle Points. Everyone (inc. the Winning Team) gets 10 points for each vehicle to which they did 51% or more damage, and 10 points for each vehicle on which they delivered the KB. VPs are just like Honor and Arena Points, and can only be used to purchase Vehicle-specific Trinkets, such as:
"Armor Plating - Equip: Increase Vehicle Armor by 25%."
or
"NO2 - Use: Increase Vehicle speed by 50% for 10 seconds (1 min cooldown). *WARNING - Vehicle steering is disabled during use!*"
Just as the current Arenas allow Teams of 2v2, 3v3, etc, the Vehicle Arenas also allow Teams to form up and battle each other. In Arena-type battles Victory VPs are divided among the winning team, so the members of a winning 2v2 would only get 50 VPs each, a 3v3 Team would get 33 VPs each, and a 4v4 would receive 25 VPs each. There would be no bonus VPs for Damage done and vehicle KBs.
As well as the Arena-type BGs, there would also be race tracks where Vehicles attempt to complete a designated number of laps while simultaneously destroying each other and attempting to avoid being destroyed. Collision detection between vehicles would exist during these races, thus destroyed vehicles coming to rest in the middle of the track would present obstacles to be avoided on future laps.
One track would be a typical Nascar oval track. The second would be a simple Indy Car street track. And the dastardly third would be a Figure of Eight where vehicles must avoid each other at the intersection in the middle of the track. Collision detection would make the Figure of Eight track very interesting indeed >:)
Even if Blizzard don't do any BGs like these, it will still be awesome to have motorbike mounts in WoW :)
Expect the price of the Mats needed to power level Engineering to skyrocket once the first motorbikes appear around Shattrath. I just hope they're not some insanely, hard-to-get PvP reward. If they're a 450 Engineering Recipe I'd be more than happy to spend 10,000 gold getting there :P
This is the Alliance version. Apparently the Horde version comes in Red! Oh, yeah!
Now I just need to get one of my Horde Toons to 70, then power level Engineering :P
I'm looking at this Bike, which carries passengers, and I'm thinking this could totally change WoW's BGs. Think Mounted Combat!!!
The following BG Ideas are pure speculations.
Pair up with someone and join the queue as a Group (pair) and assign a Driver and, by default, a Passenger.
In the vehicle-only BGs there is no Dismounting and all the Battles are unforgiving; you can only die one death, just like in the Arenas. When your vehicle is destroyed it's Game Over for you & your partner.
The Driver: As the Driver you have complete control of the vehicle. You're responsible for the safety of you and your passenger, who's just along for the ride. You can use spells and abilities, but using any spells/abilities with a Cast Time will make you lose control of the vehicle while the Spell is being Cast. Only by using Instant Cast spells can you remain in complete control of the vehicle.
The Passenger: You have absolutely no control over the vehicle. You're at the whim of your Driver. You are free to use/cast any Spells/Abilities, including those with Cast Timers, without penalty. Keep in mind that if you're targeting one vehicle but your Driver is focused on another, your Target may very well move out of Range of your spell before it's cast. Coordination between Driver and Passenger is crucial. As well as Spells & Abilities, you may also Melee or Auto-attack other vehicles if they're close enough. The Driver may also perform Melee attacks, and may do so without losing control of the vehicle.
The Vehicle: Spells and Attacks target & affect the Vehicle ONLY. They do not affect the Driver or Passenger, and thus Driver/Passenger Resilience or Spell/Magic Resists are irrelevant in vehicle-to-vehicle combat. The Armor and "Health" of the vehicle is the combined Armor and Health of the Driver and Passenger, plus a bonus for being a Vehicle. These are the only Character Stats that affect Vehicles.
Now let's look at the (imaginary) Battlegrounds.
The first Vehicle-specific BG is little more than a coliseum. An open (albeit enclosed) arena with a few obstacles here, some ramps and hills there, but mostly nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. It's a very simple Arena-type BG with just one strategy: Kill or Be Killed. When vehicles are destroyed they explode, but will remain in the BG as a smoking wreck (potentially providing cover) until the battle is over.
The Driver and Passenger of the last remaining vehicle receives 100 Vehicle Points. Everyone (inc. the Winning Team) gets 10 points for each vehicle to which they did 51% or more damage, and 10 points for each vehicle on which they delivered the KB. VPs are just like Honor and Arena Points, and can only be used to purchase Vehicle-specific Trinkets, such as:
"Armor Plating - Equip: Increase Vehicle Armor by 25%."
or
"NO2 - Use: Increase Vehicle speed by 50% for 10 seconds (1 min cooldown). *WARNING - Vehicle steering is disabled during use!*"
Just as the current Arenas allow Teams of 2v2, 3v3, etc, the Vehicle Arenas also allow Teams to form up and battle each other. In Arena-type battles Victory VPs are divided among the winning team, so the members of a winning 2v2 would only get 50 VPs each, a 3v3 Team would get 33 VPs each, and a 4v4 would receive 25 VPs each. There would be no bonus VPs for Damage done and vehicle KBs.
As well as the Arena-type BGs, there would also be race tracks where Vehicles attempt to complete a designated number of laps while simultaneously destroying each other and attempting to avoid being destroyed. Collision detection between vehicles would exist during these races, thus destroyed vehicles coming to rest in the middle of the track would present obstacles to be avoided on future laps.
One track would be a typical Nascar oval track. The second would be a simple Indy Car street track. And the dastardly third would be a Figure of Eight where vehicles must avoid each other at the intersection in the middle of the track. Collision detection would make the Figure of Eight track very interesting indeed >:)
Even if Blizzard don't do any BGs like these, it will still be awesome to have motorbike mounts in WoW :)
Expect the price of the Mats needed to power level Engineering to skyrocket once the first motorbikes appear around Shattrath. I just hope they're not some insanely, hard-to-get PvP reward. If they're a 450 Engineering Recipe I'd be more than happy to spend 10,000 gold getting there :P
Tuesday, May 27, 2008
Improving WoW's PvP
There are two kinds of people PvPing.
There are those for whom PvP is a means to an end, and there are those for whom PvP is a reward in itself. Don't believe the second kind exists? Just take a look at this screenshot from Saylah's blog.
For the second group of people, you don't need to do anything. As you can see from the above pic, and as the old Tarren Mill vs. Southshore grudge matches of yesteryear attested to, people who PvP for PvP's sake will always find a way to slake their thirst for combat. It goes without saying (you know, we say that, but then we still always say what we're going to say anyway) if you add PvP and provide rewards to people who participate, you'll be satisfying both types of PvPers in one hit. Economy of motion FTW.
WoW started off with a great PvE game that allowed for world PvP if you wanted to do that sort of thing, but the initial focus was more on PvE. Then Blizzard realized that people were PvPing all on their own, and doing so with some frequency, and the Battlegrounds were introduced. Way back when, Alterac Valley was a real knock 'em down, grind it out, slug fest. Battles could last for hours, or longer. There are some legendary AV battles that lasted for days where the only people that got rewarded were those playing at the very end when one of the Generals was killed.
Lately PvP has become all about the ZOMG! EPIX! what with Blizzard feeling compelled to provide some sort of reward for people who PvP, which is not necessarily a bad thing. If people are playing your game and over time they can earn a reward, but that reward is just one part of a 6-piece set, most people will keep playing and try to earn all 6 pieces. When people have to pay to play your game it makes sense to keep them happy while taking their money, because happy players stick around longer, which means more money for you. But enough about that, on with the "improving PvP" bit.
So how do we improve PvP? It's simple. We make PvP death mean something. Alterac Valley is taking a step in the right direction with its "reinforcements" system. You win by destroying the other team's towers and by killing the other players. Funny that. You win a PvP match by killing the other team more than they kill you. It makes sense that if getting killed brings your team one step closer to losing, that you should do everything you can to avoid dying, right? And yet...many players in AV fail to grasp this simple concept. They rush headlong into battle and get burned down by 5 or more players, then they Rez at the GY, rush straight back into battle and get killed straight away again. Their death means nothing to them, in fact they think they're helping, but in reality each death brings their team one step closer to losing. So how can we change this? How can we make their death mean something more? How can we get players to support each other? How can we get players to buff and heal each other and do their best to prevent each other getting killed?
Answer: Consecutively longer death penalties.
Die once and you spend 5 seconds waiting to Rez.
Die a second time, wait 10 seconds to Rez.
Die three times, wait 15 seconds, and so on.
I can see a few raised eyebrows and a few people going "Ok, he's lost it. I thought the Permadeath idea was crazy but now he's really lost it."
Stick with me on this. You've read this far; what do you have to lose?
Obviously this is not going to help you if you're the one that keeps on dying. That's not how we're improving PvP. The consecutively longer death penalty is going to hurt your team for letting you die. Ok, that's a bit harsh. Your death might have been because you were the idiot who single-handedly attacked 5 opponents, then again, you might have just got Ambushed by a very deadly little Rogue. Mwah hah ha! Um...where was I?
Unfortunately...my idea relies on the average PvPer being intelligent enough to learn from their mistakes. And if you've done much PvP (at least WoW PvP) I'm sure you're nodding your head here. I'm sure you've seen it all, just as I have. My Rogue has done a lot of AV, but one of the most memorable was actually an AV we lost.
When our Offense smashed themselves against a strong Horde defense, a small group of us held on at Iceblood Graveyard while everyone else was forced to Rez back at Stormpike. While they were unable to break through the Horde offense and join up with us, they made for a formidable Defense and the Horde were forced to win by attrition, slowly reducing our reinforcements one kill at a time.
Meanwhile, down at Iceblood GY, we were having a hell of a time, much like Saylah did in her 7-hour WSG. We were fighting real people in AV. We were actually PvPing! We had a couple of Healers, some CC, and massive quantities of DPS, both Ranged and Melee. We held IB GY for the entire Turtle, and it took a while for us to finally lose, but we had a blast!
We may not have got much Honor but we did rack up the HKs, but what made the battle so much fun was we stuck together and worked as a team. Our Healers kept healing us and we made sure we killed the Horde before they could kill our Healers. We didn't need consecutively longer death penalties, because in our case, we were PvPing properly. By that I mean we were playing as a team and supporting each other, which is what (I'd like to think) consecutively longer death penalties would force people to do. Because if they don't play as a team and support each other, the whole team will suffer as more and more people stay dead longer and longer, and I think everyone reading this understands what that means.
In case you don't, I'll spell it out for you. The longer you spend dead the less resistance your opponents face, so they kill more of your team mates, meaning even more of you are spending more time waiting to Rez, meaning your opponents are facing even less resistance, meaning they kill even more of you and have an even easier time getting to their objective. So the team that supports each other, stops each other from dying, and kills more of the other team faster, will get more of an advantage the longer they continue to play as a team and support each other.
Tanks will actually have a viable spot in PvP. Being in the front lines they're the ones most DPS will target, but as Tanks, and with Healers backing them up, they're going to prove surprisingly hard to kill. That's when your Ranged DPS, supported by your Melee DPS, starts laying into their Melee DPS who are blindly focused on trying to kill your hopefully indestructible Tanks. Your DPS kills their Melee DPS, your CC takes care of their Tank (assuming they even have one), then you all rush their back lines and destroy their Healers and Ranged DPS. And unless they regroup after Rezzing and come back as a Team, their failure to play as a Team will see them get picked off one-by-one and as has already been explained, at this stage defeat is inevitable.
Consecutively longer death penalties. It's a crazy idea, but just crazy enough to work. Then again, given the way the average PvPer behaves in AV, I sort of doubt it.
There are those for whom PvP is a means to an end, and there are those for whom PvP is a reward in itself. Don't believe the second kind exists? Just take a look at this screenshot from Saylah's blog.
For the second group of people, you don't need to do anything. As you can see from the above pic, and as the old Tarren Mill vs. Southshore grudge matches of yesteryear attested to, people who PvP for PvP's sake will always find a way to slake their thirst for combat. It goes without saying (you know, we say that, but then we still always say what we're going to say anyway) if you add PvP and provide rewards to people who participate, you'll be satisfying both types of PvPers in one hit. Economy of motion FTW.
WoW started off with a great PvE game that allowed for world PvP if you wanted to do that sort of thing, but the initial focus was more on PvE. Then Blizzard realized that people were PvPing all on their own, and doing so with some frequency, and the Battlegrounds were introduced. Way back when, Alterac Valley was a real knock 'em down, grind it out, slug fest. Battles could last for hours, or longer. There are some legendary AV battles that lasted for days where the only people that got rewarded were those playing at the very end when one of the Generals was killed.
Lately PvP has become all about the ZOMG! EPIX! what with Blizzard feeling compelled to provide some sort of reward for people who PvP, which is not necessarily a bad thing. If people are playing your game and over time they can earn a reward, but that reward is just one part of a 6-piece set, most people will keep playing and try to earn all 6 pieces. When people have to pay to play your game it makes sense to keep them happy while taking their money, because happy players stick around longer, which means more money for you. But enough about that, on with the "improving PvP" bit.
So how do we improve PvP? It's simple. We make PvP death mean something. Alterac Valley is taking a step in the right direction with its "reinforcements" system. You win by destroying the other team's towers and by killing the other players. Funny that. You win a PvP match by killing the other team more than they kill you. It makes sense that if getting killed brings your team one step closer to losing, that you should do everything you can to avoid dying, right? And yet...many players in AV fail to grasp this simple concept. They rush headlong into battle and get burned down by 5 or more players, then they Rez at the GY, rush straight back into battle and get killed straight away again. Their death means nothing to them, in fact they think they're helping, but in reality each death brings their team one step closer to losing. So how can we change this? How can we make their death mean something more? How can we get players to support each other? How can we get players to buff and heal each other and do their best to prevent each other getting killed?
Answer: Consecutively longer death penalties.
Die once and you spend 5 seconds waiting to Rez.
Die a second time, wait 10 seconds to Rez.
Die three times, wait 15 seconds, and so on.
I can see a few raised eyebrows and a few people going "Ok, he's lost it. I thought the Permadeath idea was crazy but now he's really lost it."
Stick with me on this. You've read this far; what do you have to lose?
Obviously this is not going to help you if you're the one that keeps on dying. That's not how we're improving PvP. The consecutively longer death penalty is going to hurt your team for letting you die. Ok, that's a bit harsh. Your death might have been because you were the idiot who single-handedly attacked 5 opponents, then again, you might have just got Ambushed by a very deadly little Rogue. Mwah hah ha! Um...where was I?
Unfortunately...my idea relies on the average PvPer being intelligent enough to learn from their mistakes. And if you've done much PvP (at least WoW PvP) I'm sure you're nodding your head here. I'm sure you've seen it all, just as I have. My Rogue has done a lot of AV, but one of the most memorable was actually an AV we lost.
When our Offense smashed themselves against a strong Horde defense, a small group of us held on at Iceblood Graveyard while everyone else was forced to Rez back at Stormpike. While they were unable to break through the Horde offense and join up with us, they made for a formidable Defense and the Horde were forced to win by attrition, slowly reducing our reinforcements one kill at a time.
Meanwhile, down at Iceblood GY, we were having a hell of a time, much like Saylah did in her 7-hour WSG. We were fighting real people in AV. We were actually PvPing! We had a couple of Healers, some CC, and massive quantities of DPS, both Ranged and Melee. We held IB GY for the entire Turtle, and it took a while for us to finally lose, but we had a blast!
We may not have got much Honor but we did rack up the HKs, but what made the battle so much fun was we stuck together and worked as a team. Our Healers kept healing us and we made sure we killed the Horde before they could kill our Healers. We didn't need consecutively longer death penalties, because in our case, we were PvPing properly. By that I mean we were playing as a team and supporting each other, which is what (I'd like to think) consecutively longer death penalties would force people to do. Because if they don't play as a team and support each other, the whole team will suffer as more and more people stay dead longer and longer, and I think everyone reading this understands what that means.
In case you don't, I'll spell it out for you. The longer you spend dead the less resistance your opponents face, so they kill more of your team mates, meaning even more of you are spending more time waiting to Rez, meaning your opponents are facing even less resistance, meaning they kill even more of you and have an even easier time getting to their objective. So the team that supports each other, stops each other from dying, and kills more of the other team faster, will get more of an advantage the longer they continue to play as a team and support each other.
Tanks will actually have a viable spot in PvP. Being in the front lines they're the ones most DPS will target, but as Tanks, and with Healers backing them up, they're going to prove surprisingly hard to kill. That's when your Ranged DPS, supported by your Melee DPS, starts laying into their Melee DPS who are blindly focused on trying to kill your hopefully indestructible Tanks. Your DPS kills their Melee DPS, your CC takes care of their Tank (assuming they even have one), then you all rush their back lines and destroy their Healers and Ranged DPS. And unless they regroup after Rezzing and come back as a Team, their failure to play as a Team will see them get picked off one-by-one and as has already been explained, at this stage defeat is inevitable.
Consecutively longer death penalties. It's a crazy idea, but just crazy enough to work. Then again, given the way the average PvPer behaves in AV, I sort of doubt it.
Wednesday, February 06, 2008
Premades vs PUGs in the BGs
If you looked at that title and said "What???" you probably want to stop reading now :P
My Rogue is currently grinding Honor for two Gladiator swords and after two nights it's very obvious that by the time I have enough Honor to buy the Swords, I'm going to have Marks coming out of my ears. It seems to me it's a flaw in the system when I have enough Marks to make a purchase, but I'm still lacking in Honor. Part of the reason is the way Honor is awarded on the BGs, but it also comes down to the price of items being too high...or perhaps more correctly, the number of Marks needed is too low.
The Honor price of an item should be in proportion to the number of Marks required to buy it, which should be directly related to the Honor earned by the average losing player in a BG. Now before you fire up those Flamers, I am not advocating ZOMG! Welfare Epics! I'm prepared to work for my epic Blades, I just don't think I should have stacks of Marks by the time I have the Honor to buy my Epics, and I certainly shouldn't have stacks of them left over after buying my Epics, either.
Blizzard need to calculate the average amount of Honor earned by a player on the losing side of each battle, and use that to determine the Honor & Marks needed to purchase an item. So just for the sake of argument, let's say a player earns 100 Honor for losing one EOTS match, that means he has 100 Honor and 1 EOTS Mark. If he wants to buy a Sword that requires him to spend 10,000 Honor he should also be spending the equivalent in Marks, being 100, but that's never the case. In fact you rarely need more than 40 Marks to buy one item, and most can be bought for 20 Marks or less. Both of my desired swords cost 20 Marks each, but one requires 9,000 Honor and the other 18,000 Honor. I have 10 Marks but barely 2,000 Honor, so I have half the Marks but not even 1/4 of the Honor for the cheaper blade. A lot of that Honor came from doing several AVs in my 50s, so it's not like there's a slight discrepancy between Honor earned and Marks received; it's a huge difference.
As it currently stands it will probably take me close to a month of several BGs per night before I can buy one of my Blades, unless I get lucky and win a few BGs (and it happens, my PUG beat their PUG last night), or I join a Premade and increase my chances of winning. Considering how often our PUG loses to a Premade, I'm actually thinking of joining a Premade next time I see one being advertized. Then again, considering how geared up my Rogue is not, I might join a Premade only to get kicked out when someone better equipped comes along.
What I'll probably end up doing is running EOTS for the Marks and unless I get into a Premade, I'll then grind AV for both Honor and AV Marks, as I can turn AV Marks in for the quest and bonus Honor. And this is definitely a flaw in the system, when I have all the Marks I need but am forced to grind an unrelated BG to earn more Honor.
Part of the problem, as I said, is the price discrepancy between Honor & Marks, but part of the problem (despite my willingness to become part of the problem) is the Premades. Currently you enter a BG with several other people from various other servers and you inevitably face a Premade. Of course you don't know it's a Premade, at first, initially it's one or two players from the Premade who stick their heads in to determine if they're facing a PUG or another Premade. It's when they report back to their buddies and your opponents' roster suddenly fills up with players from the same realm that you know for sure it's a Premade...and there goes the neighborhood.
The simple solution to this, one which would be easy to implement and which would cause a lot of concern among the Premades, would be to change the way Premades enter the BG. If it's the Leader that Joins everyone as a Group, then when it's time for the Premade to enter the BG only the Leader should get the Enter prompt. Not one member of the Premade enters the BG until the Leader goes in, and then everyone enters all at once; no testing the waters before committing to the battle. This would not make a lot of people happy, because now they can't pick & choose their battles, but why should they be able to? This is PvP. This is WAR! You'll fight when you're told to, Soldier, and you'll fight whoever I tell you to! Now get out there and FIGHT!
Another solution, one that's already been implemented in the Arenas, is preventing players from seeing who their opponents are prior to the fight. If you bring up the Battle Chart it should show your own team mates and that's it. You should have no idea who's waiting for you on the other side of the battlefield...and doesn't everyone love surprises? This is supposed to be PvP! Why you should be able to pick and choose your battles?
The final solution would be to remove the Join as a Group option, but I don't hold with that. If a Guild wants to get together and do BGs as a team, they should be able to do that. What they shouldn't be able to do is handpick their opponents and the current BG system allows them to do just that, and that's a big problem.
My Rogue is currently grinding Honor for two Gladiator swords and after two nights it's very obvious that by the time I have enough Honor to buy the Swords, I'm going to have Marks coming out of my ears. It seems to me it's a flaw in the system when I have enough Marks to make a purchase, but I'm still lacking in Honor. Part of the reason is the way Honor is awarded on the BGs, but it also comes down to the price of items being too high...or perhaps more correctly, the number of Marks needed is too low.
The Honor price of an item should be in proportion to the number of Marks required to buy it, which should be directly related to the Honor earned by the average losing player in a BG. Now before you fire up those Flamers, I am not advocating ZOMG! Welfare Epics! I'm prepared to work for my epic Blades, I just don't think I should have stacks of Marks by the time I have the Honor to buy my Epics, and I certainly shouldn't have stacks of them left over after buying my Epics, either.
Blizzard need to calculate the average amount of Honor earned by a player on the losing side of each battle, and use that to determine the Honor & Marks needed to purchase an item. So just for the sake of argument, let's say a player earns 100 Honor for losing one EOTS match, that means he has 100 Honor and 1 EOTS Mark. If he wants to buy a Sword that requires him to spend 10,000 Honor he should also be spending the equivalent in Marks, being 100, but that's never the case. In fact you rarely need more than 40 Marks to buy one item, and most can be bought for 20 Marks or less. Both of my desired swords cost 20 Marks each, but one requires 9,000 Honor and the other 18,000 Honor. I have 10 Marks but barely 2,000 Honor, so I have half the Marks but not even 1/4 of the Honor for the cheaper blade. A lot of that Honor came from doing several AVs in my 50s, so it's not like there's a slight discrepancy between Honor earned and Marks received; it's a huge difference.
As it currently stands it will probably take me close to a month of several BGs per night before I can buy one of my Blades, unless I get lucky and win a few BGs (and it happens, my PUG beat their PUG last night), or I join a Premade and increase my chances of winning. Considering how often our PUG loses to a Premade, I'm actually thinking of joining a Premade next time I see one being advertized. Then again, considering how geared up my Rogue is not, I might join a Premade only to get kicked out when someone better equipped comes along.
What I'll probably end up doing is running EOTS for the Marks and unless I get into a Premade, I'll then grind AV for both Honor and AV Marks, as I can turn AV Marks in for the quest and bonus Honor. And this is definitely a flaw in the system, when I have all the Marks I need but am forced to grind an unrelated BG to earn more Honor.
Part of the problem, as I said, is the price discrepancy between Honor & Marks, but part of the problem (despite my willingness to become part of the problem) is the Premades. Currently you enter a BG with several other people from various other servers and you inevitably face a Premade. Of course you don't know it's a Premade, at first, initially it's one or two players from the Premade who stick their heads in to determine if they're facing a PUG or another Premade. It's when they report back to their buddies and your opponents' roster suddenly fills up with players from the same realm that you know for sure it's a Premade...and there goes the neighborhood.
The simple solution to this, one which would be easy to implement and which would cause a lot of concern among the Premades, would be to change the way Premades enter the BG. If it's the Leader that Joins everyone as a Group, then when it's time for the Premade to enter the BG only the Leader should get the Enter prompt. Not one member of the Premade enters the BG until the Leader goes in, and then everyone enters all at once; no testing the waters before committing to the battle. This would not make a lot of people happy, because now they can't pick & choose their battles, but why should they be able to? This is PvP. This is WAR! You'll fight when you're told to, Soldier, and you'll fight whoever I tell you to! Now get out there and FIGHT!
Another solution, one that's already been implemented in the Arenas, is preventing players from seeing who their opponents are prior to the fight. If you bring up the Battle Chart it should show your own team mates and that's it. You should have no idea who's waiting for you on the other side of the battlefield...and doesn't everyone love surprises? This is supposed to be PvP! Why you should be able to pick and choose your battles?
The final solution would be to remove the Join as a Group option, but I don't hold with that. If a Guild wants to get together and do BGs as a team, they should be able to do that. What they shouldn't be able to do is handpick their opponents and the current BG system allows them to do just that, and that's a big problem.
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